WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[cplnorton]

I see Winchester A5 Grasshopper scopes for sale on eBay as WWI Marine sniper scopes, and there is not one iota of proof such a scope was ever used by the Marines in France.

I think you need to go back and re-read what John Beard has said to you.

On this statement above, I strongly disagree. I have official Marine and WRA pictures and documents that detail otherwise. But it's pointless to argue with you Jim. You have made your mind up on this.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I think you need to go back and re-read what John Beard has said to you.

On this statement above, I strongly disagree. I have official Marine and WRA pictures and documents that detail otherwise. But it's pointless to argue with you Jim. You have made your mind up on this.

At this point, it is a disagreement, not an argument. Has it occurred to you that there is a good reason I "have made my mind up on this"?

You may not have what it takes to back up your claim, but I do. We will need a starting point. Would you agree the Niedner rifles went to France with the 4th Brigade and that the first delivery of WRA sniper rifles was 350 rifles delivered in the spring of 1918? The exact date is not really significant at this point.

To be perfectly clear, our point of contention is that you claim these rifles had Winchester clamp on bases on 7.2" spacing and my claim is that they had Mann-Niedner bases on 7.2" spacing. Correct so far?

jt

[cplnorton]

I'm not getting into this with you Jim. I'm made my points very clear over the upteen millions times we have talked in private and in public. And any discussion with you is just one giant circle. It's redundant and pointless.

You can make all the claims that you want, that you have all this research that proves me wrong. But I really honestly don't believe it.

If anyone reading this has seen something I posted, and wants to talk to me about it, they are more than welcome to contact me, and I will discuss it with you.

Good luck in your search Jim.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

No balls, no glory. I will proceed without you, and I frankly don't care what you believe.

I will need someone to examine my data and express an unbiased and respected opinion while maintaining confidentiality as to the data itself. Anyone willing to get involved in this morass, please contact me by email. jimtarleton@att.net

jt

[1903fan]

So does that make Marine A5 Sniper Rifle the winner by default?

[Roadkingtrax]

So does that make Marine A5 Sniper Rifle the winner by default?

Makes you stirring the pot.

Actually, I err on the side with the team of archival documents and supporting information.

[clintonhater]

So does that make Marine A5 Sniper Rifle the winner by default?

By default of thoughtfullness, I'd say you were the winner of the Lame Remark award.

The winners are those, like myself, who've profited greatly by this exchange of differing viewpoints and interpretations of the data by two serious scholars of this very complicated subject--so complicated and confusing, it just leaves my head spinning.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....The winners are those, like myself, who've profited greatly by this exchange of differing viewpoints and interpretations of the data by two serious scholars of this very complicated subject--so complicated and confusing, it just leaves my head spinning.

Which is the very purpose of a forum.

jt

fo·rum

ˈfôrəm

noun

noun: forum; plural noun: forums; plural noun: fora

1.
a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

[1903fan]

Well of course your head is spinning, there are two view points that don't match up! A chance has been offered to make some sense of all this!

I must say though, how many of y'all are Marine snipers? I'm sure there are a few in here and I just want to say thanks for what you boys are doing

[Rick the Librarian]

I've watched this with interest, but I admit one thought keeps going through my head:

"I'm SURE glad I stay away from sniper rifles!!"

[clintonhater]

I've watched this with interest, but I admit one thought keeps going through my head:

"I'm SURE glad I stay away from sniper rifles!!"

Yes, skinny cats like myself don't have to worry about being caught up in that mania.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

There's more to come, Rick.

jt

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Well, Well

Headquarters U. S. Marine Corps
Office of the Quartermaster
Washington, DC

Quoted April 15, 1918.

1,000 leather carrying cases
for Winchester telescope
sights, including web straps
length 16-1/4" over-all;
inside diameter at base 1-
7/8"; inside diameter at
top 2-1/2"; each case to be
fitted with six leather loops
of such dimension to permit
the attachment of web strap.
Material used shall be 7 oz.
russet leather; each case to
be supplied with a leather
cap of same material measur-
ing 2-7/8" diameter, and 2-
1/4" deep, in accordance
with sample submitted.
_____________________

I pulled this one, which I suspect is exactly like yours, Steve. Allow me to examine this order as written.

"...each case to be
fitted with six leather loops
of such dimension to permit
the attachment of web strap."

OK, we now have 6-loops.

"...each case to
be supplied with a leather
cap of same material...."

Oh my goodness. Each of those caps has 2-loops, for a total loop count of 8 per scope case. The order is for 8-loop scope cases. When did you realize I was right?

Jim

[cplnorton]

Jim you are speculating, and adding info to the document that isn't stated. I've posted this document publically several times, even on facebook. And I've given it out to about every 1903 expert I respect the opinion of, so a ton of people have a copy of this document now. No one has mentioned to me that they have came up to the conclussion you have.

The only way I could even see arguing this is by saying a documented 6 loop Marine case doesn't exist. But they do. In fact a Marine Winchester 6 loop case is pictured on page 506 in Brophy's Book.

To prove me wrong, you need a actual document that clearly states they ordered cases with 8 loops to hold the web sling. This document clearly states that the case has 6 loops to hold the web sling. It does not say the case BODY has 6 loops and then the lid has 2 loops. For you to infer anything other than the 6 loops menitoned above, as being anything but the grand total of the number of loops, you would just be speculating and guessing.

After I got my Brophy book back, he also clearly states that 6 loop case are Marine cases, and 8 loop are commercial on page 507. So you are going to have prove Brophy wrong as well and that is something that is very difficult to do.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Unless someone changed the rules of grammar, there is no speculation whatsoever. Maybe you can point out what I added to the document for those who may be confused by your statement. Military specifications are by nature very definitive, and the Corps ordered 8-loop cases. That order made a definite distinction between the case and the cap, with the case to have 6-loops. As we all know, the cap has two loops, for a total of eight.

It appears to me that all Brophy is doing is confirming the source of the 6-loop cases as being post-war, and nothing else. Besides that, what do post-war shooting teams have to do with the subject at hand?

"And I've given it out to about every 1903 expert I respect the opinion of...." So you have no respect for the opinion of those on this forum to whom you did not send a copy? Finally, you make a statement I believe.

jt