WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have been looking at the WWI USMC sniper Win A5 scope cases, and there appear to be at least three versions, and I recently read that the "authenticate" USMC A5 scope case had only 6-loops and a leather strap. I believe that statement to be incorrect, and I believe I can so prove. If those who have these scope cases would post a two pictures, one of the full length of their scope case, and one of the inside of the scope cap, I would be appreciative. I suspect we have all seen Tom Jackson's most excellent scope case, and I believe that scope case is an example of the original issue scope cases for the Marine snipers.

If your scope case has a serial number or a name written on it, I may be able to give you much more information on your case and the sniper, which can only increase its value.

jt

[clintonhater]

Photographs of every variation available from Winchester (5, I think) can be seen in Campbell's The Winchester Single Shot, Vol. 2.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I don't have that book, and the question was not how many variations there are, but which one was the original issue.

Thanks, Fred. Can you post a picture of them for the sake of clarity?

Jim

PS
I still like that rifle of yours.

[Promo]

The three I have - none is serialized nor marked.

[cplnorton]

I want to say I saw several listed in the WRA documents, but they make it clear on who was actually receiving it.

The Marine Corps Contract one they describe in great detail though. Almost every measurement is listed. But the Marine one was a six loop one and made from 7oz Russet leather.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I want to say I saw several listed in the WRA documents, but they make it clear on who was actually receiving it.

The Marine Corps Contract one they describe in great detail though. Almost every measurement is listed. But the Marine one was a six loop one and made from 7oz Russet leather.

Gunner Steve Estock had one of the first, if not the first, sniper rifles issued, and his scope case is an 8-loop. It is now owned by Tom Jackson, and you have probably seen photos of it.

jt

[cplnorton]

I do have WRA documents that detail a 8 loop one somewhere in one of the piles, but I think I honestly found them in the commercial files after WWI. If I remember the document right it just sort of sounded like they were a commerical sales item.

The Marines and Army both ordered the same cases on three seperate contracts during the War. Which those were a little over 2,000 cases. But when you read the descriptions of those contracts, they all just say the 6 loop.

It could have been a private purchase item maybe.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I do have WRA documents that detail a 8 loop one somewhere in one of the piles, but I think I honestly found them in the commercial files after WWI. If I remember the document right it just sort of sounded like they were a commerical sales item.

The Marines and Army both ordered the same cases on three separate contracts during the War. Which those were a little over 2,000 cases. But when you read the descriptions of those contracts, they all just say the 6 loop.

It could have been a private purchase item maybe.

All known WWI USMC sniper rifles have 8-loop russet scope cases with a web strap. I have never seen a six loop. I was hoping someone would post one. When the rifles were issued, they were taken to the range and the settings for different ranges were established. The rifle's scope zero was always zero @ 100 yds. In the scope cap, a disc was placed with the settings, the serial number of the rifle, and the name of the Marine to whom it was issued. Bear in mind, some Marines who attended the school were never going to be snipers or scouts due to rank or duty station (like instructor or unit commander, etc.). I'm not certain how their rifles/scopes they used were marked,if they were. Upon the death of a sniper, the rifle and scope were re-issued.

Have you ever seen a 6-loop scope case that can be associated with a known sniper?

Jim

[cplnorton]

Jim, I guess anymore I question everything unless I have a document that proves it. We are pulling more documents out of a archive location literally every week and what they say usually does not match what is accepted now. A lot of these Marine 1903 rifles have been floating around for almost a 100 years and been through many hands. And after finding the Marine team docs, they were building these A5 rifles for over 20 years after the Winchester contract ended. So you have many different build and rebuild era's of A5 rifles with even just the Marines, which leads to many different possibilies and variations. So I tend to rely more on what I can actually prove in either period pictures or actual documents from that time period. It's sort of hard to base research on stuff that exists today as there are a lot of variables and possibilites on how it became that way in that equation.

But I have copies of all the archived WRA WWI files at Cody, and there is no mention of WRA producing a 8 loop case for the Marines. The only case that I can prove 100% going to the Marines in 1917/18/19 is a 6 loop.

I will never say never and there might be a very valid explanation for a 8 loop case, but I have a ton of documents from this era and I haven't seen it yet.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I think you have it backwards. No document trumps the physical existence of an entity. I can show you documents from long ago that stated the Earth was the center of the universe. I have an old document around here somewhere that claimed it was a scientific impossibility for man to exceed the speed of 24 mph before the air was sucked out of his lungs. The 8-loop A5 scope cases exist. The scope cases were sold by the sniper's families, and for them to have been faked in exactly the same way by individuals who did not know each other is just not possible. Gunner Estock, a South Alabama boy, had his case sold by his family. I know the man who sold Sgt. LaValley's A5 scope case on eBay, and he didn't even understand what it was. It 's pretty much the same story for the other known scope cases. All of them are 8-loop scope cases, and most can be traced by the data in them to known snipers. I have a picture of Gunner Estock holding his scope case, but you can't see the loops.

To date, no one has shown me a 6-loop A5 scope case that can be attributed to the Corps sniper program in any way. I doubt they exist.

jt

[cplnorton]

Well Jim we will just agree to disagree.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Steve,
I am not certain what it is we disagree over. We know the 8-loop A5 scope cases exist and were issued to known snipers in early 1918. This can be documented with pictures and documents. So no disagreement there. We know there was a contract that stipulates an order for 6-loop scope cases. No argument there. What we don't know is if those 6-loop scope cases were actually made and delivered since neither of us has seen one that can be traced to any sniper or even the Corps itself. Agreed? I concede I do not know whether the 6- loop scope cases exist, and if I understand your post, you do think so. Therefore I don't necessarily disagree with you, I am just seeking some physical proof they exist and were used by the Corps sniper detachments.

That is the purpose of the original post. I am seeking a photo of a 6-loop scope case with the tell-tale data in the cap documenting it as a Corps A5 scope case. Let's see what comes our way.

Regards,

jt

[cplnorton]

Actually I have never seen any Marine/WRA documention of any 8 loop cases in the Marines or at WRA.

On the WRA side I probably pulled over 5000 documents from Cody, that detail all the WWI Contracts. I have zero mentions of a 8 loop case. But I have several mentions of a 6 loop going to the Marines. Jim I can prove that 6 loop cases were sent to the Marines as well as the Army.

We pulled all the labeled Marine Documents at the archives from this era and went through them all. We did find several documents from the Marine side for the Winchester orders. The rifles are described in greater detail than the cases. The cases just say leather cases. So that is not any proof of either.

I have all the Neidner shop records for the Marine Corps for 1916 and 1917, there are no mentions of Neidner selling any cases to the Marines.

I have never seen any actual 1917/18 pictures of a 8 loop case in actual use.

The only proof I've seen of a Marine 8 loop case is a very few with a Marine name typewritten inside the lid. Many of which came through a dealer hands. Which it only takes a blank card and an old typerwriter from the day and a name from a roster. Sorry to say, but it would take me about five minutes to fake one. And there is no way you could prove it was real or not.

What I'm arguing Jim is the WRA documents do not mention a 8 loop case going to the Marines, they only mention a 6 loop case. And our only proof of a 8 loop case in the Marines is a few with typewritten names on the inside. I am not aware of any other proof.

Jim as I said, there might be a perfectly logical reason they exist, and maybe I haven't found it. Maybe there was some contract for them, that wasn't archived, or maybe they went through another supplier to get them. Maybe the Marines scrounged/ordered them from someone other than Winchester. Or they bought them after WWI.

But Winchester does not mention they made a 8 loop for the Marines during the war. So how do you prove they are real?

[cplnorton]

Jim I use this as case in point.

The Marine Unertl sniper rifle in Brophy's book, I think anyone who knows these rifles would say it doesn't look real. But that rifle in that book has #10 sights. As soon as that one seemed to show up in a book, you start to see Unertl rifles show up with #10 sights.

But the problem with this is, when you look at the actual documents, the order to remove all #10 sights from the Marine Corps happened 7 years before the Unertl rifles were even converted. They were done with those sights and condemned them. What what makes it even more problematic is in the documents it actually describes the sights used on the Unertl snipers and they are not #10 sights.

So to me I think what happened is they saw the rifle in Brophy's book, or some expert told them #10 sights were correct on them, so people started to add them to their rifles.

The same can be said with the star guage stamp at the muzzle on Unertl rifles. Even though I have documents proving that the Marines replaced the barrels with standard barrels. You see real snipers with a Marine replaced barrel and a faked star guage stamp at the muzzle. Someone just added it because someone or a book told them that was correct. So they faked it to make it seem correct.

That is why I do not trust traits anymore. There are too many possibilities of people adding or removing stuff. Usually if you search long enough you will find the actual document that describes the item at the time it was made.

And as I've said several times, maybe I will find a document someday to prove they did exist. I'm still actively looking for A5 documents. I have a researcher buddy going to the Archives on Thursday as we found a location for A5 documents from 1918/19. And God only knows what they will say in there.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

"....and an old typerwriter from the day and a name from a roster". Show me a roster of WWI USMC snipers. I have looked for 5-years and can't find one. Yet every name found in an 8-loop scope case withe the data in the lid can be traced back to his time as a sniper. Either all were faked by one very knowledgeable faker, or they are all authentic.

I can provide you with the name of a very nice preacher who sold his father's A5 scope case, and his father was trained as a sniper at the OSD Scout-Sniper School and kept a detailed diary of his time in the Corps. I know the man who now owns that scope case. I have seen and held that scope case. All involved will attest to the fact that the scope case has the detailed data pasted inside the lid of the scope case. The scope case is identical (except for name, serial number, and values) to all the other known A5 scope cases. It is an 8-loop russet brown scope case. That scope case is not faked - period. Since the others are essentially identical to it, there is no way they are fakes.

The first sniper rifles issued were issued with A5 scopes in an 8-loop russet scope case.

jt