Anyone know what ammo was used for sniping in Vietnam ?

[Johnny in Texas]

I always assume it was the white box Match M72 and XM118.

I'm sure they used what they had but was the white box Match ammo common to see.

[rickgman]

Johnny, It has been documented that Carlo Hatchcock use M72 ammo. Can't speak to the subject of 7.62mm ammo. Rick

[Sunray]

I think it was mentioned in "Marine Sniper". Hathcock's biography. I'd have to find the book to look.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Hathcock used a Unertl 7.8 powered scope on a match grade Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 with a special, straight from Lake City, lot of international match ammo utilizing 173 gr BT bullets at 2550 fps, as did all the early Marine snipers. Hathcock's rifle only shot 2 MOA. He made good use of that 2 MOA. His longest shot was 2500 yards with an M-2 with the same scope mounted that he used on his rifle. Excellent Marine who deserves a lot of respect. He certainly has mine.

Jim

[Garden Valley]

All the snipers I encountered had M40 rifles and M118 Match ammo. XM118 Match was standardized as M118 in 1965 as I recall.

[Johnny in Texas]

20 years ago I shot up a can of XM118 '63 before I realized what I had. I still have 2 cans of '66 M 118 and 2 cans of '68 M118 will probably never shoot it.

[Johnny in Texas]

I have heard that Hathcock's rifle was a 2 MOA rifle. Maybe the Standard M72 @ 2650 FPS. would have shot a little better. My prewar M70 target will shoot 1 MOA with it. But I never laid in the bush with ants crawling into my shirt and pant and tried it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

In my mind, Hathcock's greatest achievement was killing Apache. He made many incredible shots, and had courage in boatloads. He was a true blue combat Marine.

Jim

[bd1]

I have heard that Hathcock's rifle was a 2 MOA rifle. Maybe the Standard M72 @ 2650 FPS. would have shot a little better. My prewar M70 target will shoot 1 MOA with it. But I never laid in the bush with ants crawling into my shirt and pant and tried it.

4-groove Model 70 .30-06's shoot the old M72 real good.

[Chris F]

match grade Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 with a special, straight from Lake City, lot of international match ammo utilizing 173 gr BT bullets at 2550 fps, as did all the early Marine snipers.

International Match was a low velocity, low recoil round produced for 300M International Shooting per Hatcher's spec. IIR the velocity specified was ~2200 to 2300fp and was loaded exclusively by FA. Do you have a source that you can point me toward for that bit of information?

[GregV]

Interesting article in "The Small Arms Review - Vol. 6 No. 1 - October, 2002".

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/m40.pdf

[Johnny in Texas]

I have about 10 boxes of 7.62MM REM. International Match in the green box and it crono's at 2300 FPS also. Used for 300M running man shoot I was told. it is loaded with Remington 168gr HP bullet. super accurate but slow. I don't know what max accurate range would be at that velocity. I have shot the M72 straight out of the box @ 1000 yrds. with good results.

[Cosine26]

For Chris
Here is some informtion. Most of the information that I haved has been found in various American Rifle magazines from the 1920's & 1930's. Here is some information that I have found:
FA 56 International Match Ammo
Further research indicates that the FA 56 International Match Ammo was used by James E. Smith and Herbert B. Voelecker for the 300 meter Olympic shooting event in Melbourne Australia in November 1956. Both shooters used Hammerli rifles chambered in 7.62 mm NATO. They were provided three different varieties of ammo; two furnished by Frankfort Arsenal and one by Western Cartridge Company. The two loadings of FA were loaded with the 30M72 bullet –a 173 grain 9 degree uncannelured boat tailed bullet. One lot was loaded to 2250 fps and the second was to 2450 fps. The Western load was loaded into WCC cases and used what appears to be non-canister IMR4064 powder and interestingly enough uses the Western 8 ½ G primer which is both corrosive and mercuric.
Smith shot a 1082 while Voeleker shot a 1075. They selected the 2250 fps 7.62 mm NATO round identified as the T275 FA 56 match ammo.
The winner of the match was V. Borissov – USSR who fired an 1138. Borissov used a Russian rifle chamber for a 7.62 mm Russian round firing a 201 grain bullet and chronographed at 2556 fps by the NRA.
The following info is quoted from the April 1957 “American Rifleman” in an article entitled: ‘Frankfort Arsenal and Match Ammunition’:
“When Frankfort Arsenal was called upon to make the 300 meter ammunition for the U. S. Competitors in the 1956 Olympics, it had not regularly made match or even M1-type ammunition for about 15 years. Operations had been programmed for the production of ammunition under war conditions and many of the oldest employees with the detailed knowledge of former techniques had retired. In the circumstances, it was decided to rely on components which were best known. The ammunition, designated T275, was made up in 7.62 mm (.30) NATO caliber, the present national standard, but with the chlorate primer of FA no. 70 type, IMR 4895 powder, and M1 type bullet. One lot was loaded to approximately 2250 fps and a second lot to 2450 fps. The ammunition showed a high and uniform degree of accuracy. It was a remarkable accomplishment to manufacture such ammunition in a short time and after a long time period. “
For what it’s worth.
International 2200 fps Ammo
The Low Velocity (~2200 fps) International Match ammo had a distinguished and controversial career.
International 2200 fps ammo was developed at Frankfort Arsenal in 1925 while developing both International and Palma ammunition. Careful testing showed that 1000 yard ammo and 300 meter ammo operated best at two different mv. Both were loaded with a 172 gr, 9 degree boat tail bullet (non-cannelured) – very similar to that being developed for the 30 M1 round. (Interestingly enough the 1925 FA NM 30-06 ammo for use at the National Matches was the most accurate 30-06 NM ammo developed until 1962.) Tests showed that thousand yard ammo was best at the high (2700 fps) velocity while 300 meter ammo was most accurate at low (2200 fps) mv.
In 1925 the International team used the LV (2200 fps) ammo and lost the match being edged out by the Swiss. This was the first US loss since 1921.
In 1927 the US International team took both high velocity and low velocity ammo to the match but again used the 2200 fps ammo and lost to the Swiss. One of the team members claimed that the US lost because of the “low velocity” ammo. An interesting observation, for he shot very well in Standing and Kneeling with the 2200 fps ammo and poorly in Prone while one of his fellow team members set a new world prone record with this LV ammo. The winning Swiss ammo had a mv of 2505 fps. Tests showed that with the Swiss ammo, a ten mile-an-hour cross wind caused a deflection of 4 3/8 minutes while with the LV US ammo the same ten mile-an-hour wind caused a deflection of 4 ¾ minute deflection – not of great significance. The LV ammo increased the bore time by 0.0003 seconds – again an insignificant amount.
In 1928 and 1929 the International team again used HV ammo and both times lost to the Swiss.
In 1930 FA developed both a HV and LV load. The LV load was a 173 gr 9 degree boat tailed bullet propelled by 33.5 grains of HV #2 resulting in a IV of 2219 fps at a pressure of 27478 psi. The International team captain was given the option of which ammo to use. He chose the LV (2200 fps ammo) and the US team won with a score only one point lower than the world record. . After this the US decided not to enter any further competition until after WWII. The Argentine cup was sent to Poland the next year.
As an aside, Frank Parsons and E.O Swanson (two of the original members of the 1930 team) entered the International shoot in London in 1948 using the same well-worn, Springfield-barreled Martini rifles and left over FA 30 Intentional Match ammo that they had used 18 years before at Antwerp. . Parson’s rifle was so worn that they ended up both using Swanson’s rifle. Swanson placed 10th with a score of 1079. Top man shot for match shot 1120. This scored of 1079 topped the score of one of the shooters on the 1930 US winning team and two of the shooters on the second place 1930 Swiss team.
After WWII, major manufacturers were slow to reinstitute the manufacture of match bullets, so the Frankfort Arsenal started production of 30 M72 bullets (very similar to the old 30 M1 bullet) and that is what is loaded into the FA 56 International ammo. Later (about 1959?), Sierra developed the 168 gr Sierra MatchKing bullet for the 300 meter ammo. Since the 2200 fps velocity seemed to be the best velocity for 300 meters, this was the load selected. Army ordnance supported the International teams up until about 1967 when all army support of matches was stopped. I do not know what the present situation is.
Interestingly enough, in 1956 the Swedes were developing an International load using a 200 grain rebated boat tail bullet in the 7.62 Russian case fired at a MV of 2200 fps.

[Cosine26]

Carlos Hathcock

Carlos Hathcock
I have just completed reading “MARINE SNIPER” the biography Carlos Hathcock . It raises several questions in my mind. I am familiar with US Army team procedures having worked with several army rifle teams but am not familiar with USMC procedures. Perhaps someone with USMC info can answer these questions:
FIRST: It is indicated that Carlos won the Wimbledon with a 300 Winchester Magnum using a 176 grain bullet. I know that the 300 Winchester was superseding some of the older 300 H&H, 30-338 Magnum and the 308 Norma Magnum for Bull Gun use but am unfamiliar with a 176 grain match bullet in a Magnum. The closest I can equate this to this is the M72 bullet at a nominal 172 grains and I know of no one using them in the magnums at the time. The most common bullet was the 180 gr (Norma, Western, or Sierra) boat tails and some 185 gr rebated boat tails by Lapua but by 1965 many were gravitating to the 190 & 200 grain Sierra bullets with their higher ballistic coefficient. Does anyone know which 176 grain bullet he was using?
SECOND: It is indicated that on his first tour he used a 30-06 M70 Winchester Match rifle and standard M72 Match ammo with a MV of 2550 fps. The Lake City M72 NM ammo for both 65 & 66 (which had a Mean Radius {MR} of 2 inches at 600 yards) had a velocity on the box and published by the army of 2650 fps. While there is no real correlation to MR and group size, the general consensus is that MR X 3 gives a close approximation to group size. An MR of 2 inches at 600 yards would ~ = a 6 inch group at 600 yards which is practically MOA. What would be the advantage of lowering the velocity? I believe that he author mistook the stated velocity of the M118 7.62 Match for the velocity of the M72 Match.
THIRD: It is indicated that the National Match Course was sixty shots. The standard NMC in 1969 was 50 shots unless the USMC used a different NMC. By 1969 when this was addressed in the book, the SR/MR/LR targets had superseded the A/B/C targets and the possible score was 500 – 50 X not 250-50V, unless the USMC stuck with the old targets.
FOURTH: It was indicated that on his second tour in 1969 he continued to use the Winchester M70 in 30-06 with a 180 gr boat tailed bullet. He does mention the Remington in 7.62 NATO but does not mention the ammo used. I wonder what 180 gr ammo he used. The M72 NM ammo was discontinued for 1967 when the army switched to the M14 and 7.62 M118. The 1967 Nationals used left over 1966 M72 NM ammo for 30-06 Match. I understand that there was no new NM either M72 or M118 after the army withdrew support of the National Matches in October 1967. By 1969 I believe that commercial match ammo (Western Super Match, Winchester Wimbledon Cup and Remington Palma Match) had been discontinued. Does anyone know what 180 gr bullet he used? I would suspect that he probably used some left over NM ammo.

[Johnny in Texas]

I have M118 NM white box all the way into 1979 and M72 up to '68 I think I will check that to make sure. I found a can LC M72 lot 12253 '68