Anyone know what ammo was used for sniping in Vietnam ?

[Cosine26]

For raymekta
*First I did not receive your PM, please try again.
*For the 7.62 XM118 I shall have to recheck my notes. I have it under 1963 notes and it lists the ammo as lots FA 5 and FA 6: however I have about two cans of FA Match Lot 5 but it is head stamped FA 65. I shall have to recheck my data and the ammo.
*I do have some fired cases of 7.62 marked FA 63 Match but no loaded rounds.
*Lot number 12214 I have listed in my records as the lot number of LC 64 M72 NM ammo but I do not see where I have mentioned it previously.
For the 63 Match XM118 the ball powder is listed as WC846 Lot number (for powder)43435. I shall recheck for ammo Lot data)
*In the 1950's some 30M2 Ball was loaded with some form of ball powder but it caused "jugging of the chambers" in bolt rifles though it gave not problems in the M1. Investigations showed that it only occured when the target shooter in slow fire held the round verticle and tapped it to ensure tht the powder was settled close to the primer. When used in Rapid Fire, it caused no problems. All of the ammo ws recalled as I remember it and the army said "sorry". Maybe that is why the army was reluctant to use it in match ammo.
I shall recheck and get back to you.

[Cosine26]

For raymekta
The 63 dated XM118 was loaded by FA and the lots are FA5 and FA6.
* For both lots the powder is listed as Winchester-Western WC 846 Ball Powder Lot 43435
Both are loaded with the M72 bullet
*Lot 5 characteristics are listed as:
2558 fps - Pressure 41500 psi (34000 rounds) MR= 1.39” @ 300 yards. Avg Gp size 4.7”
* Lot 6 characteristics:
2540 @ 78 feet (the standard measurement) 38300 psi (217000 rounds) MR = 1.25” @ MR = 1.25” @300 yards. Avg Gp Size 4.1”.
The lots were assembled on two different days. Primer is the FA 36.
Ammo was accuracy tested in the usual heavy accuracy barrels but was limited to 300 yards which is the longest still available at FA at the time. Standard stated velocity measurement was always @ 78 feet.
I have not checked my ammo. It is in the garage and I shall have to dig it out. Hope that clears this up.
For 30 M72 MATCH ammo it was not uncommon to find two dates in one box,i.e LC62 and LC63. I do not remember ever seeing NM ammo mixed.

[raymeketa]

Cosine

I think this thread has wandered back and forth so much that we are starting to mix Cal .30 and 7.62mm at times.

You mentioned Lot number 12214 a couple of days ago and I assumed you were talking about 7.62mm. My mistake. Cal .30 Lot 12214 was the Camp Perry lot for 1964. The box should have the "Camp Perry" notation and the headstamp should be LC 64 NM.

As far as I know, all of the FA '63 M118 was loaded with ball powder. The LC '63 used IMR 4895.

I have to nit-pick a little. The Match bullet used in the T291, M72, and M118, was not called the M72. It was first used in National Match ammunition in 1924 and is more correctly referred to as the "M1 Type".

I'll see if I kept a copy of my PM to you, and I'll re-send it.

Ray

[raymeketa]

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Hap Rocketto and his post of yesterday. Over the years, I've probably read that particular article a dozen times and I learn somthing new each time. Hap has also written numerous other articles on shooting and ammunition, and without them a lot of history would have been lost. We all owe him a thank you.

I've told you this before, but I'll say it again. Thanks Hap.

Ray Meketa
AZ

[Hap Rocketto]

Ray,

Thank you for your very kind words.

It always a pleasure to 'talk' with a kindred spirit.

Regards,

Hap

[raymeketa]

One more box of Match/Sniper ammunition to show you. Some of you may recognize it.

G4 A20 Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico. M852 case, 168 gr SMK, IMR 4895. I found several full boxes in New Mexico. I was told it was dangerous - do not shoot it - bury it ! But I figured if the USMC and USN shot it in their M14s I could shoot it safely in a Remington 700. I chronographed it at a whopping 2799 fps. Maybe it was a little hot and made a gas gun rattle, but matches were won with it so it could not have been too bad.

Ray

[Cosine26]

Hi Ray,
FIRST let me say that this discussion has departed from the original discussion significantly and may be worthy of a new discussion.
SECOND Let me clear up two errors in my previous entries. The FA 65 M118 Match ammo that I have is Lot FA 25 not FA 5. It is in a brown box with a white label and is marked M118, Lot FA-25, MATCH, Bullet 173 grains, Velocity 2550 fps, Frankfort Arsenal. On the reverse side is an eagle imposed on the word MATCH in red.
You are correct; I slipped a line in my notes. LC 64 NM 30 M72 ammo was lot 12214. LC M118 NM ammo was Lot 12051.
I do not mind a little nit picking. The 30 M 1 bullets was a 9 degree, cannelured, boattailed bullet. The M72 is very close but no cigar. The data sheet for the Lake City 64 NM ammo states:
”The M72 bullet is of substantially the old M1 bullet form which has proven successful.”
The DCM price list dated 1 July 1961 offers the following for sale:
“Stk/No. 1305-573-4714, Bullet, Cal.30, M72, Boattail, 173 gr, minimum order 1000…$0.058 each”
I have ordered and still have a few thousand of these bullets and the can is marked “M72 bullets” with a lot number. They are non-cannelured and came about 2500 to the can. That is where I came up with my nomenclature.
FYI
30 caliber NM ammunition for 1924/1925/1926 were loaded with specially selected cannerlured M1 bullets. (There were no National Matches in 1926 due to budget cuts.)
The 1928 Nationals were fired with a selected lot of standard 30M1 Ball much to the chagrin of the shooters. The service 30M1 ball was not nearly as accurate the previous 1925 NM ammo.
From 1929 on, all NM ammo was loaded with a non-cannelured M1 match bullet. The Nationals of 1941 were to be fired with the standard 30M2 service ammo.
The pre-war matches included a twenty shot, 1000 yard stage. All pre-war match ammo was tested at 1000 yards. FA 58 NM ammo was the last tested at 1000 yards – the later NM ammo was limited to 600 yards. I suppose because the 1000 yard stage of the NMC had been deleted.

[raymeketa]

cosine

Hmmmm. My records and notes conflict with yours re: the pre-war match bullets. They show the M1 Type (smooth) being used in '24, '25, '29, and '30. The M1 (cannelured) being used in '28, and '31 thru '40. Cartridges in my collection confirm this.

Pre war, FA and the DCM sold both cases and bullets for handloaders. Both M1 Type and M1 bullets were sold. It appears that the bullet designation was changed after 1958 and the adoption of the M72.

Ray

[Cosine26]

Ray,
Do you have a Lot number or a date for the left hand box?
On the right hand box, What is the date? I cannot read it.

[raymeketa]

There's nothing on the left hand box to indicate date. However, the box construction, color, lettering style, is nearly identical to boxes of empty match cartridge cases from 1930 that were sold to handloaders. So, I would say it's pre-war.

The M1 Type bullets are dated 5 June 1957. I also have a box of empty cases from Frankford Arsenal dated July 58. They are headstamped FA 58 MATCH. Both the bullet and case boxes have Pilot Lot numbers (FAP).

I have a box of LC empty Match cases headstamped LC 78 NM and a box of bullets with an LC 85 lot number.

Ray

[Cosine26]

M72 Match Bullet Info

Here are some pictures of the 30 M72 bullet saga.
*The first is a picture of the ordering page from a DCM pricle list dated 1963 and the bullets are listed as .30 M72.
*Following are some pictures of cans of bullets marked with the stock and part number. The can lables indicate that the bullets are for the .30 M72 and the 7.62mm M118 Match ammo.
*I have no information on the M118LR or the M858. I believe that the M858 was loaded with the 165 gr SMK and I have read that the M118 LR was loaded with a 175 gr bullet however I never used and do not have any info on the bulllet .

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/Bullet0001.jpg

From DCM price list dated 1963

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets015.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets014.jpg

The top two pictures show the M72 bullets packed in 100 round boxes

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets011.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets002.jpg

This shows the can lables with an 85 and an 88 Lot number

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets004.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets007.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets006.jpg

The above three pictures are of FA 65 Match ammo

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMBullets/NMBullets003.jpg

This shows the bulk pack of the L0t 88 M72 bullets
At one step on this thread it was indicated that all Sierra Match King bullets were hollow points. The early 180 gr and 200 gr SMK's were full patch not hollow point. After the introduction of the 168 gvr International bullet the 190 gr SMK was introduced as a hollow point. Shortly after that all SMK's were hollow point.
W. J. Burns a ballitician for Winchester indicated that the better accuracy of hollow point over solids in 22 rim fire ammunition was well know. Some lots of standard velocity hollow poiint would out shoot the 22 rf Match solids.
For what it's worth.

[raymeketa]

. . . *I have no information on the M118LR or the M858. I believe that the M858 was loaded with the 165 gr SMK and I have read that the M118 LR was loaded with a 175 gr bullet however I never used and do not have any info on the bulllet . . .

The M852 was loaded with the 168 grain Sierra MK (which was originally the 168 grain International). The current M118 LR is loaded with the 175 grain Sierra MK, a bullet that was designed specifically for the M118 LR. The 168 grain SMK is not a good long-range bullet, tending to become unstable at trans-sonic velocities. The Army now calls both those bullets "Open Point" to justify their use as sniper rounds.

Ray

[Garden Valley]

The 1957 .30 Cal MATCH ammo carried a "T" designation. When it was standardized in 1958 as M72 the bullet was also designated M72. That is why the box in the right of the photo above has a Frankford Arsenal printing date of 5 June 57 and designates the bullets in the box as "M1 TYPE." Boxes of bullets dated 1958 and later designate them as "M72."

[raymeketa]

Garden Valley

The original Cal .30 Match was designated T291. It was standardized in mid 1958 as the M72. 1958 boxes can be found with either designation. The change apparantly took place beginning with Lot FA 45.

Here is one of the very first boxes of T291, Lot FA1. A pre-production inspectors box.

Ray

[raymeketa]

. . . Boxes of bullets dated 1958 and later designate them as "M72."

Garden Valley

Do you have any boxes of bullets with the M72 designation on them? I have been looking for one. All that I have seen are like the ones's that Cosine26 showed, indicating that they are for use in either the M72 and M118.

Ray