Anyone know what ammo was used for sniping in Vietnam ?

[Cosine26]

Hi Johnny in Texas,
I have white box LC M118 up through LC 68 MATCH but it is not head stamped "NM" . Most of the "NM" ammo I have used is head stamped "LC 62 NM" while regular Match ammo was head stamped "LC MATCH 62".

[Johnny in Texas]

I get what you mean. Yea this is USGI Match not the Camp Perry marked boxes with NM brass. You are probably right about those dates on the NM marked ammo. I thought that the NM ammo was what was issued at to all service rifle shooter at Camp Perry.

[Chris F]

Thank you for all that information Cosine26 and all. Is that you Ray? I suspect that folk are treating Henderson's writing as gospel, where there's a certain amount of "fill in the blank" or creative license that was applied. I'd seen the 2moa statement attributed to Land in his recent recollections. I wish I had thought of asking him some of these questions when he was presiding over the Nationals at Perry a few years back.

Johnny in Texas, are you able to send me a photo of those Remington Int'l Match Boxes? Better yet, would you be interested in selling a box or two?

Cosine26, I had little peeks at what WTBN did for ammo from the late 80's to the 2000's. Our host Mr Culver probably has better insight into the relevant period. Given how cobbled together the sniping efforts were in the early war, I would suspect that they were doing well to just get sufficient quantities of good 'ole M72.
Oh yeah..I collect this stuff....here's a pic;

[Johnny in Texas]

Here are some pics. I have 14 boxes and would part with some .

[Cosine26]

Hi Chris,
I changed jobs, moved and lost all of my military contacts so do not have any info on the later match ammo after 1969. I believe some later Match ammo was loaded with 168 SMK and some with 175 gr bullets. From then on, I went to the bolt rifle and used only handloads. i do have a box of 1930 Internation Match 30 caliber. This was loaded with the non corrosive Berdan primer. I also have a few boxes of Western 308 (not 7.62mm) loaded on contract for the government wtih 200 gr bullets (Sierra?) I relly do not know who made the bullet because this is head stamped "WCC 58". It is loaded with what I believe is non canister 4064 and is primed with the Western 8 1/2 G primer which is both corrosive and mecuric. I have several cans of M118 , some FA65 Lot (FA 5) and some LC68. I do not have the statistics on the LC68 but believe that it paralled the LC 67 in performance.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Good grief, Charlie Brown. I have now had a really neat education on match ammo. You guys know more about ammo than is normal (which is good). Thanks, guys.

Chris, you are indeed correct. Jim Land told me that Carlos' rifle was a 2 MOA rifle, and Major Land was in a position to know. I was north of those guys, but if I had known what was going on at Hill 55, I would have gone UA just to volunteer to clean their rifles. They were making history while I was tramping through mud and swattin' skeeters. I still laugh trying to visualize Jim and Carlos wrestling over that rifle. Only Marines could be that goofy in a life or death situation.

Jim

[Chris F]

I have a friend who is a fellow competitor/collector that has pursued the history of military match ammo from an academic standpoint. There's a lot of history there. The gray area's are in the transition years...when did one type of ammo cease production while another came online. ie. M118/M118SB/M852 and M852 whitebox/brownbox. He ended up writing a very nice article for the Cartridge Collecting Association on the history of military match ammo covering the 20th century. I myself was fortunate to have a friend who headed up Sniper Section at the RTE Shop during the fielding of AA11 which was unique in that it was fielded by the USMC vice Army. ...many interesting anecdotes there that would make another interesting footnote in the history.

Marine A5 Sniper, so now that you can see that I have a more than passing interest in the ammo aspect, can you tell me more about the source of Hathcock et al using "LC International Match" ammo. I as well as my friend would probably be interested in trying to run sources while they're still around to tell their stories?

[Johnny in Texas]

Chris I was very involved in HP Match shooting during that transition to M852 in white box then brown not for combat use and then M118SB that was for combat use because the M852 had not been approved yet. The M852 would not make it 1000 yrds. without keyholing. That is when M118LR was on the drawing board. None of the Guard shooters in our club shot straight M118SB they all made "Mexican Match" using the new Sierra 175 HPBT match bullet. Some of the Guard shooter were being issued Federal Match 168 HP the M118SB just had bad bullets. I used the pulled bullets for practice and I never could get them to shoot great even off the bench. The CMP sold a bunch of M118LR and I bought all I could afford. I scrounged all the ammo I could in those days. 5.00 a box for white box M118 was the going rate in early 90's at a Match.

[raymeketa]

During the 1950s, Frankford Arsenal manufactured three different Cal .30 match cartridges. National Match, Palma Match, and International Match. National Match was manufactured until 1961, the last Palma and International Match in 1956. As far as I know, none of the International Match was loaded to more than 2300 fps.

Both Remington and Winchester produced commercial International and Palma Match ammunition after Frankford Arsenal stopped production, and the AMU did likewise. It may have been one of these loadings that Hathcock used.

I have never seen or heard of a Lake City Palma or International Match loading in Cal .30. If anyone has details on such a thing I'd really be interested in hearing from them. LC produced M72 until 1968.

The T275E4 that Chris posted was modified for use in the M14 and became the XM118 MATCH in 1962. It became the M118 in 1965 and remained in production until 1982. XM852 was first loaded in 1981 and continued as the National Match standard until 1996. It was the last true National Match cartridge.

M118SB was first loaded in 1982 in response to the need for a sniper cartridge following the discontinuance of the M118 MATCH. It was replaced by the M118LR in 1995.

The USMC (and USN) was never fond of the mild National Match or SB loads and they produced their own ammunition with the 168 SMK to much higher velocities, such as the G4 at nearly 2800 fps. Their first loads with the new Sierra 175 grain MK were loaded to 2700 fps but when the Army became involved it was eventually downloaded to todays 2550 fps.

Much has been said about the "white box" ammunition but as far as I know it was no better or worse than any other box color.

Ray

[Johnny in Texas]

I refer to White box M118 to differeciat from M118 SB that is in a Brown box and was loaded with ball powder. It was a term I picked up on the range among military shooters. When Speacial Ball was all they were getting. I guess you had to be there.

[raymeketa]

Johnny

Actually, the first M118 SB was packaged in the same white box as the M118, only with a paper overlabel. It was loaded with IMR 4895 up until at least 1985 or later.

Being in the white M118 box caused many shooters to believe that SB was simply left over M118 that was re-designated. But, it was a new cartridge with a new headstamp, crimped primer, and loaded to slightly higher velocity.

In 1982, LC loaded 3 different cartridges that were packaged in the same box. M118, M118 SB, and M852. It's no wonder that some shooters were confused. Later, having three different cartridges with the M118 designation didn't help either.

I was military at one time (1950s), but didn't start shooting competitively as a civilian until the late 60s. So, I was there too. My problem is that I don't remember a lot of the details so I have to rely on the remembrances of others, such as you and Chris.

Ray

[raymeketa]

Johnny

Speaking of memories and details, maybe you can help me with this one. Anyone else feel free to chime in too.

You mentioned "Mexican Match". Everyone who shot back then knows what it was but, where did the name originate? I've heard several different versions from different shooters but no one was willing to say positively one way or the other.

Ray

[Johnny in Texas]

I always thought it was a reference to how (Being from Texas) Mexican Nationals living here or elsewhere would modify something to make it work better. Not a disparaging remark.

It's an Industry term!

Like spit and bailing wire to a Redneck. LOL!

I never saw M118 SB in anything but brown boxes. I had about 6 cans of '87 and it had some kind of ball powder.

[Cosine26]

For Johnny:
My information shows that 7.62 XM118 for the 1963 Natiional Matches was loaded with 44.1 grains of WC846 Ball Powder lot 43435.
My information further shows that M118 was standardized for the National Matches in 1964 with lot 12214. MR @ 600 yards was 1.9 inches with 240 0f the 270 shots going into a 6 inch circle at 600 yards. The ammo was fired in three different barrels-9 strings in each barrel. The load was 42.1 gr of 4895 Lot No. 44038.
In testing for the NM ammo LC fired twenty seven, 10 shot strings at 600 yardsfor record for acceptance testing. Why 27 strings? - I do not know.
Perhaps the LC 87 Match 7.62 you fired was loaded with some lot of WC846.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Certainly

Marine A5 Sniper, so now that you can see that I have a more than passing interest in the ammo aspect, can you tell me more about the source of Hathcock et al using "LC International Match" ammo. I as well as my friend would probably be interested in trying to run sources while they're still around to tell their stories?

From "Marine Sniper", which I got from Maj Land. Jim is a good friend of mine (as he is with many of the forum members), and we can ask him any question you wish. He is very accessible even as Secretary of the NRA, and he is the most helpful, and busiest, guy I know.

I do not know the author's source, or accuracy, but I suspect the source was Maj. Land. from what you guys have said, and I don't doubt for a second, is that the "same ammo" wasn't used in NM's and IM's.

Jim
___________________________________________
"Land managed to add to his men's confidence and chances for success by obtaining
a large lot of match ammunition, direct from the Lake City Arsenal—the same ammo
used in national and international shooting competition. It had 173-grain, boattailed
bullets that traveled at 2,550 feet per second and would strike the
target at the same spot with every shot. A dozen strong, the classes began."