1909 Match 1903 with Winchester A5 Scope

[cplnorton]

I don't know honestly. But it didn't have a sling on it. That is just one from my stash I put on.

[StockDoc]

Interesting, looks like the same sling in the picture of the Sgt holding the rifle.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....It also bears a strong resemblance to a A5 Marine rifle pictured from the WWI era. The date and location of the photo is unknown, but speaking with WWI uniform experts that study the pictures of that time, they believe it might be in France in 1917....

I believe that picture was taken at Camp Perry (or some other range). The Marines in France wore Army uniforms.

jt

[cplnorton]

I've been trying to put a exact location and date to the picture ever since I first picked up the rifle. Just because if I can, then I have a exact date and location to better understand the history of mine.

The picture is pretty popular in all the books, and online, but no date or location is ever detailed. They usually say WWI or "WWI Era" as the description. But, I might have found a clue that would detail more where the picture was taken though. I traced the photo to Europe and found it in an online museum collection over there. They have the description, On the Western Front 1917-18. Which is also a generic term and one could argue they just mislabeled the picture as well.

But they have a un-cropped version of this picture that I have never seen before. In this un-cropped photo, it has identifiers at the bottom of the photo that can provide more clues. It has 4337 in the lower left corner, and a US Official watermark in the lower right.

I've been working with some Marine WWI Photo collectors trying to date this picture for a while now. When I first showed them this, they said it had to be France in 1917, but they could not prove it. Well when I found the un-cropped version of the picture, I went back to ask them what that means. They said that is how the Army Signal Corps marked their official photos taken in France during WWI.

Here is the un-cropped version and you can see the number in the lower left, and the US Official in the lower right.




Just to make a comparison, this is another really famous photo that is shown in about all the books of a camo painted Warner Swasey. I also found a un-cropped version of this picture, with the same type of markings at the bottom that the collectors said was WWI Army Signal Corps. The only thing about this photo, a date and location is known. I've seen this one described as taken in France in May 1918. But notice the same style number in left corner and the same US Official watermark in the right.



Here are the two photos Side by side with the Markings visible.




Now I'm trying to locate the photo at NARA, and pull it. I'm hoping if I can find it at NARA, it will have on the back the location and date of when it was taken. But I'm really starting to think this photo was taken in France in 1917-18. Which that would be interesting. Just because the assumed serial ranges of the Marine A5 Rifles in WWI are later serials numbers, which would not have the early features of the rifle in that picture.

So yeah I don't know. I might find it at NARA and it says Camp Perry, 1919. I won't know till I find it. I just want to find exactly where that photo was taken and the date. Just for nothing else than to better understand my rifle better.

[Griff Murphey]

Beautiful rifle, what history to hold in your hands.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

[QUOTE=cplnorton;445069.... Just because the assumed serial ranges of the Marine A5 Rifles in WWI are later serials numbers, which would not have the early features of the rifle in that picture...[/QUOTE]

Assumed? First time I've heard of the serial number range being "assumed".

The Marines held their match rifles in reserve during the war (Senich). That was just one of the reasons the Corps had Winchester assemble the sniper rifles.

The Winchester A5 was first marketed in Feb 1910, and the matches were held in August 1910. That means the Mann-Niedner base system had to have been developed within that 5-month window, actually less time since Neidner would have needed time to mount the scope plus travel time. That is a short time period for 1. Mann or Niedner buys the new scope and bases, 2. the development of the Mann-Niedner bases, 3. the Marines to have become aware of the new base system, 4. the rifle sent to Niedner, 5. bases mounted, 6. rifle returned to Marines, and 7. shooter to become acquainted with setup. I realize anything is possible, but one must admit it seems highly unlikely at best.

If we keep looking, we will find the answers.

jt

[cplnorton]

Jim,

So you think the bases were designed and made by Neidner? I keep on researching them and everything I find points to Winchester as the manufacturer. Unless I am misunderstanding you, and you think Neidner installed the Winchester bases?

I appreciate your help!

[John Beard]

Jim,

Cplnorton's rifle is fitted with WRA USMC scope mounts, not Neidner tapered scope mounts. I see no Neidner connection, unless you think Neidner installed the mounts. Your response is solicited.

J.B.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Mea culpa. I was under the mistaken impression that the bases were Mann-Niedners. My mistake. The "Marine" bases could have been, and probably were, installed by Winchester when the scope was purchased. If I recall from the early ads, Winchester offered to install bases for any Winchester scope purchased. The Corps must have been very impressed with the A5 from the get go. In the 1909 issue of AatM, is an article about the W&S M1908 scopes being issued to the troops. In a demonstration, a shooter did as well with open sights as he did with the W&S at 1000 yards. The article said the advantage went to the scope at 1500 yards.

I did make a couple of observations, and I preface this part by stating I don't know much about the NM's. I read several articles in the AatM about the 1909 and the 1910 NM's. No where was the word scope mentioned. Winchester's ads in the 1910 issue did not mention the A5, just their ammo. No scoped rifles appear in the very few pictures in the articles. In one article it states that only the service rifle "as issued" will be used in the matches, and that 1909 rifles can be turned in for 1910 rifles. Since the 1903 is issued sans scope....?

I realize, and they discuss, the "as issued" rifles were all modified in several ways, including matching trigger pulls for 1000 rifles; so they were hardly "as issued" rifles.

Someone save me here, but as best I can tell, the first "any rifle, any sights" match at Camp Perry was the Wimbledon Cup; but the first time the Wimbledon Cup was held at Perry was after WWI. In 1916, the WC was held at Jacksonville, Fl of all places. That brings us to trying to figure why the Marines would scope a NM rifle that wasn't going to be used at the NM's for another 10-years. Granted, it could have been used in other AR,AS matches; but then it wouldn't be a NM rifle, or maybe it is a NM rifle that the Marines scoped after Camp Perry, making it useless for Camp Perry in its near future. According to the 1910 rules for the NM's, competitors had to use a rifle issued them by the Ordnance Department at Camp Perry, and they were not allowed to make any alterations to the rifles other than stock relieving around the barrel and such. Were the competitors allowed to keep their issued rifles after the match was over?

Your response solicited.

My response proffered.

jt

PS
How did you like them Bulldogs this year, John? Makes me proud I saved my cowbell.

[cplnorton]

John probably has way more info than I could ever find. But this is what I have found so far by going back through the documents and interviews of the time.

The first use of a scoped 1903 service rifle on the Marine team was in 1909 at the Sea Girth NJ match. It said that 1stSgt Victor Czegka attached a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girth and practiced with it, and then took that rifle to the Wimbledon Cup in 1909 and won the cup with it. I've been trying to find a pic of that rifle for two weeks now, but can't find it. The reason being, the first time the Winchester A5 scope was ever showcased by Winchester was at Sea Girth in 1909. So you have a report of a Marine attaching a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girth, and a report of the first time Winchester brought demos of the A5 scope at the same match in June 1909. Now I have no clue if that is what he used or not. Just a observation and a coincidence until it can be proven right or wrong. It just describes it as a telescope he mounted himself. I figured he had to have his picture taken being the first Marine to ever win the Wimbledon Cup. But if I can find that, that might be a clue. But that was the first use of a scoped Marine 1903 team rifle I can find.

I can find other mentions of them using the scoped 1903's at the Wimbledon Cup pre WWI as well. When I researched the cup it looks like it began in 1875 and was held pretty much ever year since. In 1907 the rules of the Cup changed and it became a competition that was 20 shots at a 1000 yards with any rifle. So any rifle, scoped or not, was legal after 1907. But it seems to the be the only competition I can find where competitors could use a scoped rifle if they wanted to. But here are the winners I can find from that 1909 time period to 1918.

1909 1SGT Victor H. Czegka, USMC 98
1910 CPT Guy H. Emerson, 6th OH Inf. 99
1911 CPT Guy H. Emerson, 6th OH Inf. 98
1912 CPT A.L. Briggs, 26th US Inf. 97
1913 CPL Thomas E. Vereer, 14th US Inf. 99
1914 NO COMPETITION
1915 CSGT J.E. Jackson, IA NG 98
1916 GYSGT John J. Andrews, USMC 99
1917 NO COMPETITION
1918 CPL Frank L. Branson, USMC 92

The other other reference I find to them using the Telescoped 1903 besides the Cup, pre WWI, was they were a training tool. And this is probably the primary purpose of them honestly. It makes the most sense. The interviews I have read, said they could put them in the hands of a team shooter, and looking through the telescope at long distances, it would help them control holding the rifle more steady. They said looking through the magnification it was easier to see how little movements effected your shot at a 1000 yards. And it sounds like they were used for snapping in. As they practiced trigger pull looking through the scope, to see how trigger pull affected the movement of the crosshairs on the taget. So it honestly sounds like they migtht not have been shot that much. But I've found several mentions of them doing this in 1916 and before, and even a mention in 1913. In 1919, when the teams reformed, they continued the practice. In fact in 1919, they detail that they have (40) of these telescoped 1903's set up to train on holding the rifle steady, that were available to the rifle team. I have not yet found a reference to how many they had pre WWI.

But yeah that is the most I can come up with so far on them using them pre WWI. But I will keep digging, but from everything I have read so far, it just sounds like they had the scoped rifles almost as soon as they switched form the Krag to the Springfield in competitions in 1908/09.

Like you said, this is going to take a lot of research. You probably don't even want to know how much money and time it has cost me to find even these snippets. lol This era is a nightmare to research as you already well know.

[cplnorton]

Were the competitors allowed to keep their issued rifles after the match was over?

I forgot to mention this, and the other post is so long, I just thought I would do a new post. But in the Marine manual from the time of the Krag till at least the 1930's, the Marines could purchase their service rifles and pistols. I have the document downloaded in my photobucket, but the site is down for maintenance. Once it comes back up, I will throw it up there. I imagine if they could buy their service rifles and pistols for the actual cost to the Government, I would think they would be able to buy their match rifle as well. But John would have a better idea than me on the Match side of it. Just because he's the NM king. And the Marine rifle team and the Marine Corps itself were really two entirely different organizations at this time. But I will post it when the site comes back up and edit this.

*Edit, I forgot I could attach the document. It's from the 20's, but I can find almost the same identical document even back at the start of the 1903.
Fullscreen capture 1172016 75416 AM.bmp.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

John probably has way more info than I could ever find. But this is what I have found so far by going back through the documents and interviews of the time.

The first use of a scoped 1903 service rifle on the Marine team was in 1909 at the Sea Girth NJ match. It said that 1stSgt Victor Czegka attached a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girt and practiced with it, and then took that rifle to the Wimbledon Cup in 1909 and won the cup with it. I've been trying to find a pic of that rifle for two weeks now, but can't find it.

It wasn't an A5, because he had to make his own mounts (I think we are reading the same book).

The reason being, the first time the Winchester A5 scope was ever showcased by Winchester was at Sea Girth in 1909.

Now where did you find that? The first time the A5 showed up in Winchester's catalog was 1910.

So you have a report of a Marine attaching a scope to his service rifle at Sea Girth, and a report of the first time Winchester brought demos of the A5 scope at the same match in June 1909. Now I have no clue if that is what he used or not. Just a observation and a coincidence until it can be proven right or wrong. It just describes it as a telescope he mounted himself. I figured he had to have his picture taken being the first Marine to ever win the Wimbledon Cup. But if I can find that, that might be a clue. But that was the first use of a scoped Marine 1903 team rifle I can find.

I found his winning pic, but the rifle he is holding does not have a scope (yes, I know he used a scope). Bear in mind this match was not the NM, although Jacksonville (not Sea Girt) did host the NM's at least twice later on.

I can find other mentions of them using the scoped 1903's at the Wimbledon Cup pre WWI as well. When I researched the cup it looks like it began in 1875 and was held pretty much ever year since. In 1907 the rules of the Cup changed and it became a competition that was 20 shots at a 1000 yards with any rifle. So any rifle, scoped or not, was legal after 1907. But it seems to the be the only competition I can find where competitors could use a scoped rifle if they wanted to. But here are the winners I can find from that 1909 time period to 1918.

Wimbledon Cup - yes, NM's - no.

The other other reference I find to them using the Telescoped 1903 besides the Cup, pre WWI, was they were a training tool. And this is probably the primary purpose of them honestly. It makes the most sense. The interviews I have read, said they could put them in the hands of a team shooter, and looking through the telescope at long distances, it would help them control holding the rifle more steady. They said looking through the magnification it was easier to see how little movements effected your shot at a 1000 yards. And it sounds like they were used for snapping in. As they practiced trigger pull looking through the scope, to see how trigger pull affected the movement of the crosshairs on the target. So it honestly sounds like they might not have been shot that much. But I've found several mentions of them doing this in 1916 and before, and even a mention in 1913. In 1919, when the teams reformed, they continued the practice. In fact in 1919, they detail that they have (40) of these telescoped 1903's set up to train on holding the rifle steady, that were available to the rifle team. I have not yet found a reference to how many they had pre WWI.

But yeah that is the most I can come up with so far on them using them pre WWI. But I will keep digging, but from everything I have read so far, it just sounds like they had the scoped rifles almost as soon as they switched form the Krag to the Springfield in competitions in 1908/09.

Yes, I have no doubt they used scoped rifles in matches allowing AR, AS's., but we are talking about a rifle that may have been issued to them in August of 1909 for use in the Camp Perry NM's. The Corps would not have scoped it for the NM's as there were no NM matches allowing scopes that year, so the question is - did they scope it later? I personally don't believe the scope was available in August of 1909. Some of the patents for the A5 are dated in 1910, and the earliest drawings I can find of the "Marine mounts" are dated 1926. I believe the A5 was not available until 1910. One might want to consider the rifle was scoped after 1909.

Using a scope as a training aid to magnify tremors was started by USMC Capt. Garland Fay in 1916.

Like you said, this is going to take a lot of research. You probably don't even want to know how much money and time it has cost me to find even these snippets. lol This era is a nightmare to research as you already well know.

Oh, we know all right. Been there, done that. But look at how much one learns in cases like this.

jt

[cplnorton]

I found the mention of the first A5 at Sea Girth in 1909, in Brophy, Page 502, first paragraph on the page below the A5 pics.


Actually I might have just figured out the puzzle. I am going to do a little more research on this. So if I don't answer back right away you know why.

[cplnorton]

This wasn't what I was working on, but it's really sort of exciting. But I really thought if I could find that photo like my rifle in the archives, I could confirm that the picture was indeed taken in France in WWI. And that would mean the Marines used more than the Neidner modified rifles over there. So I contacted a Researcher and gave her the box number I thought it would be located, and she found it. So now I think it's pretty safe to say that the Marines used more than just the Neidner modified rifles in France. Which I don't think this has ever been documented before.

But this is what she wrote me, and the location if anyone wants to go pull it in the archives. I removed her name just for privacy reasons.

Dear Mr. Norton:

The complete caption for 111-SC-4337 is, "US Marines in France, telescopic rifle sight." The image is undated and the specific location in France is not noted. We are sorry we cannot give you any further information on the image itself. Reproductions (traditional or digital), if needed, can be purchased through any of our private vendors, by citing the above noted number. A list of private vendors is available at http://www.archives.gov/research/ord...s-maps-dc.html . Their prices vary (a pull fee is charged to each of the vendors by the National Archives). There are no known copyright restrictions on the image. Following is our publication statement. If we can be of further assistance, please let us know.

Thank you,
National Archives & Records Administration
Still Picture Reference


American_First_World_War_Official_Exchange_Collection_Q85303.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

This wasn't what I was working on, but it's really sort of exciting. But I really thought if I could find that photo like my rifle in the archives, I could confirm that the picture was indeed taken in France in WWI. And that would mean the Marines used more than the Neidner modified rifles over there. So I contacted a Researcher and gave her the box number I thought it would be located, and she found it. So now I think it's pretty safe to say that the Marines used more than just the Neidner modified rifles in France. Which I don't think this has ever been documented before.

Steve,

It is the Winchester modified Mann-Niedner mounts that have never been proven to have been used in France. The Corps had a gob of the rifles with #2 mounts in France. As it develops, they had both. The question is their source. If the Corps did indeed hold back their match rifles in reserve, where did the scoped 03's in France originate? Maybe we need to join forces if you are serious about researching Corps A5 scoped 03's. Others have saved me money, so maybe I can save you some, or at least split the cost. I think our future is in Philadelphia. Time to talk. I'll email you my phone number or vice versa - your pick. I have unlimited minutes.

Damn glad you found the true origin of that photo. I had written it off as being taken stateside. Facts beat out BS any old day.