1909 Match 1903 with Winchester A5 Scope

[CptEnglehorn]

beautiful rifles

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I just got off the phone with Jim. What a damn good old Salty Marine. lol I wished I lived closer. I would bug the crap out of him.

It's really nice talking to you Jim.

The feeling is mutual. It was a most interesting conversation indeed.

Jim

[Rick the Librarian]

Always nice to hook up with Jouster members. I remember Dick and Gloria gave me a standing invitation to visit them. Very much regret never doing so.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have met or spoken to quite a few Jouster members, and I liked them all immensely. As much as we bicker on the forum, we are gracious in person.

Don't give up on this thread, as Steve and I are trying to account for the earliest appearance of the Springfield bases (Springfield, Springfield Marine, and the Mann-Niedner's). The question we had is why the predominance of the 6" base spaced scope installations if the Springfield Marine bases on 7.2" spacing were available from the get go; and in Steve's case, the likely period of time when his rifle's scope was installed. We have half the answer, and we search on. We'll be back. Trying to keep up with Steve is a full time job in itself.

jt

[Fred]

I'm learning a Lot from both of you guys all the time.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

You have caught me off guard a few times, Fred. When I see one of your posts, I open it. Always good stuff.

jt

[cplnorton]

I finally said screw it and hired a researched to pull all the Winchester files. It's going to cost me some money, but this is going to bug me till I do. lol I think if I can see that correspondence from early 1917 to around July 1917, it will answer a lot of my questions.

I did find a better copy of this in another paper from 1917, so I thought I would post the better copy.

[Fred]

2,000 to 3,000 yards is pretty cool. It Can be done with a U.S. Model Of 1903.
Back in 1981, another Lt. and I took a jeep and our 1903 Springfields out to the Ft. Irwin live fire Tank Range to see what we could accomplish at 1200 to 3000 yards. Those rifles were real accurate at all ranges with open sights. Real accurate.

[John Beard]

Fred,

I anticipate that a .30-'06 bullet would fall out of the Winchester A5 telescope field of view at 3,000 yards, and perhaps even 2,000 yards. Whoever wrote the newspaper report engaged in some sensationalism.

J.B.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

With a 400 yd zero, the 30-06 has a drop of 100 feet at 1500 yards. That 3000 yard shot is going to require some serious elevation. At 1200 yards, the A5 on 6" spacing will still have the target in view, a distinct advantage over 7.2" spacing, which is why one sees so many 03's with scopes mounted on 6" centers. At 3000 yards, the shooter is on his own.

jt

[Fred]

Using our open sights, John Moody and I were able to consistently hit the old WWII tanks that had been used as targets for decades. It was neat seeing the dust pop up wherever a bullet would impact. I suppose that at those distant ranges, it was actually like the old time mass volley firing where soldiers massing together far away could be harassed and casualties inflicted with those "for whom it may concern" shots. Anyway, it was quite fun. We had an 1898 Krag with a 1901 rear sight on it too that seemed to me to be more accurate than the 1903 Springfields. Perhaps the heavier 220 grain bullets carried themselves better through the air.

[Promo]

I own a 605.xxx M1903 which features the long slide Lyman 48C up to 1000 yards. Makes more sense to me now that they used the 6" spacing with the rifle, if that is required with the A5 on this distances ... Attached some detail shots.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Georg,

I may have to correct myself, as I was repeating something I read in Townsend Whelen's book, The American Rifleman. The modified WRA A5 has a knob on the vertical adjustment of the mount that is calibrated from 100 to 1600 yards. I generally don't argue with statements by Townsend Whelen, as that statement may be true of the #2 WRA mount, but in the case of the WRA modified #2 mount, it appears to not apply. The modified mount is neat in that you can zero your rifle and then zero the adjusting knob, which allows you to just dial in the range for elevation adjustment. That scope/rifle combination was way ahead of it's time, which may explain Pvt. Roland Fisher's ability to hit 6 Germans with 6 shots at 1400 yards at Le Mare farm.

I have a modified A5 on a Sporter, and we are looking for an area where we can make a 1,600 yard shot to check out the accuracy of the graduations. So far, all we have found is a long stretch of I40. Will get back to you if and when.

The WRA A5 has a 3.2 degree Field of View, which calculates to be 16.752 feet per 100 yards (someone check my math). At 1200 yards, the FOV would be 201 feet. I do not know offhand what the range of adjustment in a WRA #2 mount is for any spacing, but you should be able to calculate it pretty easily.

jt