1909 Match 1903 with Winchester A5 Scope

[cplnorton]

Thanks Jim,

Yeah I don't mind sharing any of the Documents I've found. And I will touch base offline.

On the Neidner rifles in France, I've found a couple pics of the Neidner modified Rifles with the Mann style tapered blocks. This is the clearest pic of one I have found so far that was supposed to be taken in France. But I really don't trust a lot of the info out there anymore, unless I can find proof. To me this almost looks like a sniper school picture since you can see several of them in there. I do have one good pic of a Neidner modified rifle being tested in the states in June 1917 that I found in a newspaper of all places. But I haven't researched this pic below at all, just because I was researching the one like my rifle. But if you can for sure place this picture in France, it would prove it.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

You are looking at a crop of a picture of the last "OSD Sniper School" graduates, and Marsden is in that picture (cropped part). All the rifles you see are Winchester assembled Corps sniper rifles with Mann-Niedner mounts/bases, and you can thank Hansen for that pic (he found it). The picture was taken at the OSD on 19 Nov 1918, after the war was over.

I can prove all types of mounts were present in France except one. One of the OSD SS graduates died in France during the war (each graduate kept his rifle and all graduates had Winchester mounted Mann-Neidner/Winchester modified A5 mounts), and I know someone who has a documented Niedner sniper rifle (1 of the 150 mounted by Niedner) that was used at Belleau Woods (I believe the 150 Niedner rifles went to France with the 6th Regiment). There were also, in France, Corps sniper rifles with an A5 mounted on 6" centers and sniper rifles with A5's mounted on 7.2" centers, all with #2 mounts.
jt

[Emri]

Thanks Steve & Jim............

I must say that this has been a most interesting thread. Discussions like this one are the reason I started looking at CSP many years ago. Maybe y'all should come to Birmingham in March, then you can pick John's brain and maybe Lynn Meredith's also if he is there. Ask John how much fun we have discussing rifles (and other things) while picking the last bite off them rib bones !!

Thanks again,

Emri

[Rick the Librarian]

I agree - I tend to stay away from sniper rifles (probably due a mental block about such things!) but I agree with Emri - this is why I joined CSP all those years ago. A great, very learned discussion with nobody's tail getting out of joint!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I must say that this has been a most interesting thread. Discussions like this one are the reason I started looking at CSP many years ago. Maybe y'all should come to Birmingham in March, then you can pick John's brain and maybe Lynn Meredith's also if he is there. Ask John how much fun we have discussing rifles (and other things) while picking the last bite off them rib bones !!

Thanks again,

Emri

Such a meeting may be on the table for me, I don't know about Steve. Steve and I communicate a lot through email, and I find him to be damned resourceful. He finds stuff I couldn't, or haven't, found. I could use some ribs, and I am trying to buy a 1963 Chevy Impala SS convertible w/409, 4 in the floor. It would be a perfect trip to "break it in". Steve has gotten me motivated again. I seem to have info he doesn't, and vice versa.

I am intrigued with his find. It bears certain characteristics that leave me little doubt that Winchester mounted that scope. The USMC Philly Depot was fully capable of scoping all the sniper rifles for the Corps. There has to be a reason they relied on Winchester, as they had in the past (Vera Cruz invasion). As for the Mann-Niedner bases on all the sniper rifles, I think I can support the supposition that Niedner sold the Corps the bases to be installed by Winchester, or at least the rights to make and install them. The War Department paid Niedner $151 for something right before Winchester did the deed. Niedner had been paid by the Depot to install the 150 scopes (same month).

I do know why the Corps decided to use the Mann-Niedner system for their scopes. It is a neat story involving sex and intrigue.

jt

[louis]

Hey Jt. Don't stop there with sex and intrigue! Let's hear the story this whole thread is extremely interesting and educational. Please continue!!

[Fred]

Yea!

[Promo]

Hey Jt. Don't stop there with sex and intrigue! Let's hear the story this whole thread is extremely interesting and educational. Please continue!!

so .. what exactly are you planning to learn?

[cplnorton]

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

I'm going to be a 100% honest. I've sort of pulled away from posting stuff online that I find. I don't do it much anymore. Not because I'm hoarding it for a book or anything like that. It just sometimes seems to start a fight and that isn't what I want to do. If you know me, I love this stuff, and I love to research. So I dig into documents, pictures, newspapers, basically anything I can find from the time period. It's just something I really enjoy doing and I spend a good portion of my time researching.

I think I might have stumbled across something very interesting, in a FBI report of all places, that I think answers some of the big WWI Marine sniper questions. But I've been very hesitant to post it. Just because it goes against the grain of what some of the books say out there, and sometimes when you post that stuff, it ruffles feathers. And that isn't my intention at all. If I posted it, my intent would be so we could all pool our collective knowledge together, discuss it, and possibly solve this mystery once and for all.

I honestly don't think anyone has seen this info, and I don't mind sharing it. If you guys want me to throw it up on here, I don't mind. I just don't want to rub people the wrong way, if that makes sense?

[Cosine26]

In my opinion , post it with the caviar you just posted and mark it "FWIW".
.

[louis]

I know how you feel Steve. I'm the same way. Do what you think is best. This has been a very interesting thread. You won't rub me the wrong way.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Steve,

Post whatever you want. Anyone who gets riled over data found during research is a nut anyway, it's when people use the data that the fireworks start. For example: Sgt. York has long been accused by female members of his family (one is a grand daughter) of serial incest and rape. A lot of people know about it, but no one wants to talk about it. No future in it.

I think I know what you are going to post, and that kinda stuff happened a lot in those days. You might be interested to know the govt didn't abandon him at all.

jt

[Fred]

Oh Heck, Please just post it and lets all kick it around. I Really Appreciate any and all theories and bits of information.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Looky Here!

Looky, looky at what I found, Steve.

Read the article. That rifle is from 1912, and it is an A5 with Springfield bases on 6" spacing like the group from 1914. I still believe, but don't know how to prove, that the Marine bases came to be in response to the Mann-Neidner bases which were on 7.2" spacing. By the way, it appears the Corps teams do keep their rifles after the matches.

Picture was taken at Sea Girt in 1920.

jt

[cplnorton]

Sorry guys, I've been having "Family time."

My wife is a Nazi about me not doing the "gun" thing on the weekends when everyone is home together, so I will jump on more in a little bit.

But what I essentially found is Neidner was a German Immigrant, and right after he finished converting the 150 rifles for the Marines. He was accused of some really bad pro German, Anti American statements and he got his butt investigated by the FBI. So they ended up detailing the whole conversition process he did for the Marines in the process of the report.

By the way, excellent Photo Jim! That is the kind of stuff we need to find. The more we find like that, the more we can piece it together. I haven't found any pics from that pre 1917 timeframe at all yet. All I've ever seen is those two 6 on center rifles at the SA museum with SRS hits to 1914. And the 1915 report by the Army that condemns the A5 scope, partially because it has the 6 on center mounts.

To be honest, the research I've found over the past couple days makes me sort of lean towards my rifle being later as well honestly. But that is just speculation on my part.

Hell I don't want to say what I think it is. lol

But I will be on in a little bit once the family all goes to bed.