1909 Match 1903 with Winchester A5 Scope

[cplnorton]

This is a interesting rifle that just appeared out of Massachusetts. It is an original 1909 Springfield 1903 with a Winchester A5 installed. I've shown it to a lot of experts and I think the general consensus is, it is probably one of the early Star Guaged Match rifles, and it might have been a Marine Match rifle as well. But as with anything of this time period, it's always hard to prove 100%. The conversion seems to be of the time period and probably was done in WWI or before. The rifle, except for a modified trigger does not have any of the later National Match modifications done to it. But that would be correct for a Star Guaged Match rifle made in 1909.

The serial is 368496 and has a 6/09 SA barrel.

[cplnorton]

The blocks on the Rifle, match the drawings of the Winchester Springfield Marine blocks in Brophy's book. It also bears a strong resemblance to a A5 Marine rifle pictured from the WWI era. The date and location of the photo is unknown, but speaking with WWI uniform experts that study the pictures of that time, they believe it might be in France in 1917. The rifle appears to be early as well. With a single bolt highwood stock, small knob on the windage, and I cannot see any reinforcing clips on the handguard. This rifle also bears a strong resemblance to the rifle in Brophy's book with the Springfield Marine Mounts in the Cody Museum. But the Cody rifle is a later serial number.

I sort of doubt I can prove what it is 100%,just because so little exists from this era. But regardless it sure is a neat rifle to look at. I hope you guys enjoy it.

[Fred]

I LIKE it!

[Rick the Librarian]

...as do I!

[03Rifleman]

Wow...now that's what I call "eye candy"!

I'd say you've built a very convincing case cplnorton...as far as that goes, I'd like to think that could be the same rifle that Marine has shouldered in the picture...less the front sight cover~

Is this a recent acquisition of yours? If so, you've got yourself quite the treasure!

Great pictures and many thanks for the posting!

[cplnorton]

Yeah it showed up on Gunbroker as a Buy it Now a couple weeks back. The seller was a gunshop and said it came from a older women who had sold it because her husband had passed.

[RCK]

I just can't stop staring at that combination. Thanks for sharing.

[rockisle1903]

Nice rifle and thanks for sharing..Good deals are out there and rare rifles are still available..Congrats

[louis]

A real find Steve!! A guess there are some hidden ones around.

[Dan Shapiro]

WOW!

[John Beard]

Steve and I corresponded quite a bit on the rifle. We concluded that the rifle was a star-gauged and targeted rifle issued to the USMC shooting team in 1909 (but too late for the 1909 National Matches), who fitted it with a Winchester A5 telescope for match competition in that classification. Prior to 1910, National Match rifles were nothing more than selected, star-gauged, and targeted service rifles.

J.B.

Correction. Steve's rifle was manufactured and potentially issued in time for the 1909 National Matches held at Camp Perry, Ohio, beginning in late August.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I have tried to isolate the date the Mann-Niedner base was first used with no success. It could have been as early as 1906, and most certainly before 1916. Niedner mounted many of these mounts on the rifles of Marine target shooters before WWI. The fact that #2 mounts were modified for use with the bases is certainly interesting. The serial number and time frame separate this rifle from the later designated sniper rifles assembled by Niedner and Winchester by years. Since as late as 1917, the Marine target shooters were still having their scopes with Mann-Niedner mounts mounted by Niedner, it is not only possible, but most likely, that Niedner mounted that scope. The Marines had the capability to make any part of the assembly, but I doubt the Corps would have ripped off Niedner in such a way unless some agreement existed between the two. In mid 1917, the Corps contracted with Niedner to mount 150 scopes on 1903's using the Mann-Niedner bases rather than do it themselves. Oddly enough, the bases on this rifle are missing all the typical Niedner "signatures". A mystery inside a mystery.

I suspect a very early Niedner mounted scope for a Marine Rifle Team member, probably ordered by the team member for his own rifle.

Nice find.

jt

Correction on my post also: I must have been asleep when I made that post. Those bases are "Marine Bases", and those are typical, commercial #2 "Grass Hopper"mounts. If you were lucky enough to own a 1903 back in the day, and you ordered an A5 mounted on 7.2" spacing, that is what you would have received from WRA. Of course, only the military had 1903's in 1909, to my knowledge. But any US military entity who had been issued 1903's and ordered an A5 from WRA mounted on 7.2" centers would have received a rifle that looked just like this one. The "Marine Bases" were the WRA bases to mount an A5 on 7.2" centers, nothing more, nothing less. I personally see nothing on this rifle to connect it to the Marine Corps whatsoever. As for it being a Match Rifle, I don't know, as the A5's on 7.2" centers were typically used for matches less than 1000 yards (due to field of view issues), and I am unaware there were any 1909 matches where scopes were used at less than 1000 yards. I would expect 6" centered scoped match rifles to be used at 1000 yards, but anything is possible. Some of the rifles, such as this one, were later converted to Mann-Niedner bases to take advantage of superior zero holding capabilities of the Mann-Niedner bases over the WRA bases, which is typically evidenced by the front hole of the Mann-Niedner rear base being plugged, and a third hole drilled to match the 7.2" spacing WRA "Marine Base" hole spacing.

[cplnorton]

John and Jim, thank you for taking the time to comment on this thread. Also thank you so much for taking the time privately to look at the rifle and discuss it.

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, excellent discussion!

[StockDoc]

Beautiful, love the look of the stock. One question though on the sling why so short, was that a shooter modification or a different variant of an issued sling?